Re-cladding

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sancho panchez
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Re-cladding

Post by sancho panchez » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:09 pm

Any news on re-cladding, I thought we were supposed to hear by the end of October.
Al D
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Al D » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:26 pm

I think it was said in the last notice that there would be an update sent out in November - and that is still the case.

I know the surveyor has some excellent news re getting a huge energy grant to cut everyone's costs - there's some other legal / lease details too.

We're still on course for the work to start next summer but, unfortunately, when you get a major multi million pound contractor discussing highly technical re-specifications with a major multi million pound sub-contractor in order to cut every possible aspect of this project's price down, and the surveyor is having to get that to happen at least twice in order to bring about a competitive tender, these discussions just drag on far longer than any of us want them to.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by sancho panchez » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:55 pm

Many thanks Al D, let's hope it's good news soon.
Davefromwalton
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Davefromwalton » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:13 pm

Hi there,

Just wondering if you have any update on the cladding work, in particular;

- Quote prices
- when we can expect the work to begin (is it still summer 2015?)


Thank you,
Al D
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Al D » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:00 pm

The recladding committee has a meeting with the surveyor on Thursday, and the board meet next on Monday to discuss it.

I guess therefore there'll be an update very soon - hopefully with some figures.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Davefromwalton » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:38 pm

Hi Al,

Any update from the board meeting on 12/1/15?

Thank you.

Dave
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Al D » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:11 am

Hi Dave - sorry I'm away on business at the moment and havent been keeping on top of all the fun and games of the last few days!

You should have got the update from GCS which ended up being both an update and a response to a letter that everyone received.

The meeting was very positive: We have (as of yesterday I think) received a written offer of nearly £400k from Action Surrey of an energy grant - that reduces everyone's bill by about £3,000. Plus Action Surrey have said there will be more sources of funding available. We only got this grant because of the changes to the spec that have been made since the summer, from Rainscreen cladding to thermal insulation.

The two contractors have both said they will have prices 'imminently'. It is frustrating how long it's taking but they keep going back to their sub contractors or our surveyor with minor amendments that will reduce our bill that require a day or two to piece together. The price will be much more affordable than the summer quotes, we're told, but we just have to be patient as these companies work out the technicalities.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by abelard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:52 pm

The meeting last night was by Heather, Brian and Karen.. About 12 leaseholders attended..

<Edited by Moderator 7/2/15>
peterstreet1599
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:22 pm

25 people attended, signed in, with 8 apologies expressing disappointment at not being able to come and asking to be kept in the loop.
A good result for a cold night at short notice.
Meeting was called by Heather, not Heather, Brian and Karen.
It was informal and relaxed , no hostility displayed, one person was rather argumentative.

Those who attended said that the questions posed by Heather had been poorly addressed and unanimously agreed that the board should answer satisfactorily within 2 weeks, pending further action.
No sensitive stuff related to the tendering process was discussed. Figures were circulated from quotes in 2010, long past their sell/buy date. Hardly sensitive.
The reason why one of the top curtain walling specialists in the country who has been a good friend to Wellington Close for 9 years has withdrawn from the tendering process was given to the meeting.
Nothing sensitive about that either. They've gone. We've lost them. After 9 years.
No information regarding re-cladding tenders was discussed. How could it have been? We haven't got any! Whole point of the meeting!
This has been going on for 10 years. The current tender was opened in June 2014, not August, as stated in the update. For 7 months there has been no progress. 
"Could we have a quote from you, Mr Meagher, for the Forum?"
"Certainly, I should like to see Wellington Close re-clad before I die, or before they cart me off to the nut house after my experience as Technical Advisor to the Board It has been positively Kafkaesque"
"Thank you for that, but is it that serious?"
"Aye"
The truth of the matter is that this RTM Board is divided. The consequence is that it is less effective than it should be, and that is to our detriment. They should stop bickering amongst themselves and sort it out.
Notes were taken and the meeting was taped with the approval of all. So that the event could not be misrepresented or denigrated.


<Edited by Moderator 7/2/15>
Last edited by peterstreet1599 on Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
CreteAlexis
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by CreteAlexis » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:48 am

I WAS AT THE MEETING

THE BORD SHPOULD BE SACKED WITH PAUL COURTELL AS NEW CHAIR AND HEATHER AND KAREN AS DIRECTORS

I CANNOT AFFORD THE CLADDINF AND THE WORK IS UNECESARY AND BADLY DONE

GET NEW PEOPLE IN ANS DO THE WORK IN 10 YEARS WHWN THE ECONOMY IS BETTER
Taipan71
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Taipan71 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:53 pm

Agreed, the board is divided and it's time for new blood. Nothing is happening.
And Al D, we don't want insulated render that is going to look awful in 5 years time!
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Al D » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:05 pm

Alexis - the work is not something that can be held off for a decade for economic reasons, it is being done because it is essential maintenance.

The existing cladding was built in 1967 and a had a maximum lifetime of 40 years - in recent years parts off it have fallen off the buildings and many people's flats (my own included) now suffer from unacceptable levels of cold, damp and condensation, plus maintenance costs are now escalating.

This is a project that has been pursued since the 1990s and there is no tolerance for any more delays. Because we have abandoned the rainscreen cladding approach in favour of the insulated render approach we have found a not-for-profit organisation that will provide levels of funding and loans to leaseholders for the work, more information will be delivered on this in due course.

Taipan - insulated render does not look awful in 5 years. Almost all residential tower blocks are refurbished using insulated render these days (please Google tower blocks insulated render and look at the image results). Rainscreen cladding is far more expensive and is usually used for city centre office blocks.

It comes with a long term guarantee and yes it requires maintenance, but so does any cladding material.

The image of the poorly and wholly rendered building that was handed out at the meeting is quite deceiving. The windows and panels will not be rendered at Wellington Close - only the mosaic and brickwork areas.

Furthermore, it is irrelevant having the discussion about rainscreen versus insulated render. We went to tender for rainscreen last summer and you saw how unaffordable the cheapest price was. Insulated render, which has more thermal properties than the rainscreen cladding and therefore will keep our flats warmer, is about £1 million cheaper throughout Wellington Close, has attracted nearly £400,000 of energy grant funding and further loans to come, and VAT discounts, which will equate to savings of over £12,000 per person.

One person who attended this meeting has since contacted a director / GCS with a number of questions that he / she was confused by from the meeting:

Are those running the project divided?

No - the entire recladding subcommittee, GCS, the entire WCMC board, the surveyor and about 90% of the Wellington Close boards are 100% behind what's being done. There is one dissenting voice - and I think that's healthy anyway - from two directors who both quit the boards in the past and then rejoined together.

Is the render suitable for Wellington Close?

Yes (I've already answered that). What I didn't put, and I presume those who ran the meeting did not mention this - the render will not be coated over all of Wellington Close, it will only be in key areas. We will get a diagram shortly to show everyone where the render will be, explaining the technical specs.

Will there be a long delay for the lease rectification?

No. Again, very disappointing that this rumour is being spread. Lease rectification is a formality, it is not the same as the lease variation process.

There are other things about prices and contractors pulling out that I do not want to put on a public forum (feel free to contact me privately or speak to GCS), but when this was explained to the leaseholder, his / her response was: 'so I was basically given a whole load of misinformation for that meeting then'.


<Edited by Moderator 7/2/15>
peterstreet1599
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:10 pm

Al D I entirely agree with the necessity to get the work done. It is a rare occasion when I agree with anything you say. However I cannot agree with the rest of your posting on this Forum.


Insulated render DOES discolour over time. The colour is in the mix and cannot be reproduced. The members who attended the meeting were shown photographs illustrating this. You do not have to go far to see an example of stained rendering. Stand in the car park in Wellington Close behind Block B and look at the flats on the other side of the wall.

Members of the meeting were very clearly told where the insulated render was thought likely it would go i.e. where we previously had rainscreen. The areas were explained to them. However, there are some areas that are uncertain as you are keeping this to yourselves, e.g. the brickwork under the windows on the spur blocks, and the flank walls of the spur blocks. If the flank walls were to be rendered, an important period feature would be obscured.The members asked for these details and were given them.

Almost all residential tower blocks are NOT refurbished using insulated render these days. This is UNTRUE. Rainscreen is used for both residential and commercial properties. There are dozens of examples where rainscreen has been used even in council estates such as Ferrier Point in Newham and Hutcheston Town in Glasgow. Google “Images for Rainscreen cladding on residential blocks in London” and you will see many high class examples - all residential.
Aluminium rainscreen is recognised as a higher quality product by all informed persons. Powder coated aluminium is a very durable material, damaged panels can be replaced separately if required and it is easy to clean. It is also engineered to repel water and wind from the building. Insulated render is not.

Look up Rainscreen on Wikipedia.

Dealing with your argument that rainscreen is not affordable. This argument is not sound. The tenders last year were unaffordable because they included too many extra less important or urgent details. Many more details than rainscreen cladding. The reason this discussion is NOT irrelevant was demonstrated by the meeting called by Heather on Tuesday last. Everyone asked if there were ways to afford rainscreen as everyone preferred it.

You state that Insulated render has more thermal properties than rainscreen cladding and therefore will keep our flats warmer. The UK construction industry begs to differ. They are both external solid wall insulation. One is not a better insulator than the other.

The thermal performance depends on the thickness of the insulation used behind the render and behind the aluminium. Perhaps you have not understood this. For example 150mm Rockwool or Kingspan gives a 'U' value of about 0.3 regardless of whether it is covered with render or rainscreen. The difference then comes down to the performance of these two outside systems.. As aforesaid, rainscreen is an engineered product which repels water and wind and protects the fabric of the building. Insulated render does not. And Rainscreen is designed to last for decades. If a panel is damaged, you replace it.
There is one thing insulated render has over rainscreen, it is cheaper in the short term. Maybe you and others don't care about the long term maintenance cost nor the aesthetic appearance of these buildings. I do. I rather think from the reaction of those who attended the meeting once they are told the facts, and asked to think about it, we might find a few others who agree.

Along the way we came to a fork in the road. One way was to restrict the work to a specialist Curtain Wall contractor. The other was to employ a main contractor with an increased scope of works. Against all my advice you chose the latter. Look where that has led us. You have not explored the many possibilities available to us. If you want to argue your case, that we cannot afford to do a proper job, you will need to get several quotes from each strategy and compare them. At the moment you do not have a case.

If you do not think this is a good idea I feel you will be continuing to go against your remit – to be transparent in your dealings with the leaseholders and to achieve the best possible result from the re-cladding.

Regarding lease rectification. My information is that a rectification to a contract is required when the contract does not reflect the actual agreement, and that it has to go before a judge to rule on the matter. This is not the case here. Both parties' understanding at the signing of the lease was that the service charge should be paid in arrears. Are you saying that you can simply change this agreement without the consent of the leaseholders? That it is simply a formality? Paying in advance is not what we agreed to.

This is what we believe to be true and it is not a rumour spread by people who know it to be false. You promised a letter explaining lease rectification last November. You should have the sensitivity to see that people are anxious because of the time the lease variation took. If it is a rumour then scotch it!! We'll all be relieved to hear it. This situation is of your making because you withhold information and leave us all to guess at what is going on behind the scenes.

You were not present at the meeting. If you had bothered to turn up you would have been able to discuss issues directly with the members in the open. That was what the members were expecting. An open forum.

The meeting was recorded and notes were taken. The minutes have been sent to those present and those who sent apologies for approval. You will get them soon and you are welcome to listen to the tapes and read the notes. Again, we have nothing to hide.

No-one claimed that everyone was divided on the RTM board. Dissent is healthy, but an organisation split into factions is not.

Take note of this blatant piece of spin. Your list of people who are behind what is being done. You say the ENTIRE recladding subcommittee i.e. you and two others!
GCS - none of their business, they are managing agents that's all.
The entire WCMC board.. not their business either, they are not there to do the re-cladding. It is the remit of the RTM board.

Regarding funding. I am very pleased that Adair are pursuing grants and I think that you will get this grant, although you will still have to jump through some hoops.

Both insulated render and rainscreen cladding are solid wall external thermal insulation. Therefore both should attract the same type of funding. I know of blocks clad in rainscreen which have been given grants. One of them has been mentioned earlier – Ferrier Point.
The reason you will get a grant for insulated render is that you told Action Surrey that was what you are using. You did not tell them you wanted to use rainscreen, so how would you know?

You also state that insulated render is the reason you are getting a VAT discount. You get a VAT discount on materials. You will get this whichever system you use. You imply that you and Adair have been clever and hard working enough to achieve a VAT discount, because you are using insulated render. The VAT discount was actually brought to your attention by one of your directors, years ago. Credit where credit is due.

As you say, the leaseholders have paid Adair approx £70K so far, There is a question mark over their behaviour during the tendering process when they lost one of the contractors. The leaseholders are entitled to know why. They are entitled to know where their money is going. I'm sure you and GCS will come up with some little white washing story of your own. But we know the truth, we have proof of it and and we have nothing to hide. Anyone who wants to know the truth should contact us.


The quotes were for the entire re-cladding package, using rainscreen cladding The quotes were for £25,595; £31,901.55; and £35,391 per flat inclusive of VAT. We would have had to find the money for the roof as well. This would have added another approx £2K to each bill at the most. You received these quotes on August 16th 2010
For the record, the prices obtained in 2010 based on carefully detailed tender documents were firm quotations. Two of the firms have sent letters confirming this fact. They held these prices until 2012.
The employee you describe is the Commercial Manager from whom the quotes were received. These managers have the authority to issue quotes. If you doubt this, I suggest you contact the individual concerned yourselves. It is the same man whose quotes you have been relying on up until last October for the last 9 years. My quote from him in 2010 was final, as were the other two. We are still waiting for you to come up with even one firm quotation.


<Edited by Moderator 7/2/15>
peterstreet1599
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:24 pm

Harley Curtain Wall Ltd recently produced a study for clients making up their minds whether to go for Rainscreen or Wet render. They use both systems themselves, so no axe to grind. I'll have to type it out myself, but if anyone wants to see the original I could forward it to them.

WET RENDER SYSTEMS
1. lower initial cost outlay
2. limited design work required
3. material available "off the shelf" (short lead time)
4. quality & consistency of finish is down to individual operatives
5. installation highly restricted by inclement weather and low temperatures
6. difficult to hide services, limited flexibility
7. limited visual styles
8. attracts dirt and looks"tatty" unless cleaned regularly
9. typical design life period for render much less than cladding systems
10. untidy interface details,abutments to windows etc.
11. wet trades typically introduce risk of damage to surrounding windows etc.
additional cost of protection to windows/doors/glazing,and management of the same
12. general appearance of render lacks any architectural flair

cf RAINSCREEN CLADDING SYSTEMS

1. mid range initial cost outlay
2. detailed design required to co-ordinate all elements
3. typical fabrication lead-in time of 12-16 weeks
4. quality of finish is guaranteed by factory produced components & laser checked alignment on site
5. installation rarely affected by weather
6. services can be fitted inside the cladding zone, giving clean lines to the building whilst protecting the services,
these can be accessed at a later date by removing individual panels.
7. wide range of architectural styles available through a myriad of panel finishes & designs
8. finishes retain looks for many years, requires less maintenance
9. typical cladding design life period 60 years
10. very clean lines achieved with cladding interface details
11. no protection required to windows etc.
12. architectural interest can be designed-in by use of different cladding finishes whilst utilising the same rail system.
peterstreet1599
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:22 pm

Al D

Can you justify these statements that you have made on the forum and in the latest update from the RTM Board to the leaseholders?

1. 2010 figures were not genuine

2. Insulated render does not look awful in 5 years

3. You are getting a VAT discount solely because you are using insulated render

4. Insulated render has more thermal properties than rainscreen cladding and will keep our flats warmer than rainscreen cladding.

5. Almost all residential blocks are refurbished with insulated render, whereas rainscreen cladding is usually used for city centre tower blocks.

6. Lease rectification is merely a formality

7. The people attending the meeting on 20th January were misinformed e.g.the extent of the insulated render, lease rectification, the tendering process.

What information did we give to the leaseholders present at the meeting that was not true?
We are happy to guarantee the veracity of all our communications and we have good technical data to back us up.
If you do not respond we will assume that you cannot justify your statements.

<Edited by Moderator 7/2/15>
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